Alyssa: Welcome to another episode of Funding the Future, the stories behind the missions. Today I'm joined by Barbara Brangan. Barb, if you're happy to go from Grantful. Barb has an incredibly impressive track record in grant writing, winning over $44 million in funding for her clients. She's worked with a wide range of not-for-profits over her years in business and has a strong social impact focus. Welcome to the podcast, Barb.
Barb: Cool as them, delighted to be here.
Alyssa: Thanks so much for joining. And before we dive in, I'd just like to acknowledge I'm joining everyone from Ngai Tahu lands in Otautahi Christchurch. Where are you joining us from, Barb?
Barb: I'm joining from the land of the Gadigal people in Sydney, in Australia.
Alyssa: Awesome. We pay our deepest respects to elders past, present and emerging and grateful for the space to meet here today. So to start us off, Barb, could you give us a quick snapshot of Grantful, your mission, who you're supporting, how you got started?
Barb: Yeah, absolutely. So Grantful is my business and I originally started as a freelance grant writer. And then as the business was growing, I was like, oh, I need a name for this business, right? Something kind of other than myself. And I landed on Grantful because I think A, it has the word grant, so that helps. But it is very much a spin on grateful and full for abundance. Because there is funding out there and what I really notice is that sometimes organizations and individuals don't know how to navigate the funding application process in order to stand out. And so that was my job. I originally thought it was grant writing, pure kind of writing, but I actually find it's a mixture of many hats. It's ideating, it's shaping, it's being creative, and then it's writing.
Alyssa: 100%, I really relate to that. Especially, I didn't realize quite how much like program design and even sort of project management to a degree.
Barb: Yeah. And I think that's kind of the fun creative part and also getting something down from a thousand and fifteen words into a thousand words, right? It's like that will not beat me. I will make that happen. But I work with clients based in Australia and typically nonprofits, registered charities. And that includes those who fundraise for the majority of their funding or also those who subcontract for government services or are community health organizations, and then some Aboriginal controlled organizations that straddle kind of both senses.
Alyssa: That's really cool. So you work across a variety of sectors as well?
Barb: Yeah, I have a deep passion for the mental health and kind of youth space. I think that's where I cut my teeth. So it's always something I'm really interested in. But I've also done aged care, drought resilience, I'm doing that at the moment in terms of an Aboriginal program, Medicare mental health centers. I think improving outcomes for people is probably the category it falls under the most.
Alyssa: Yeah, the breadth of that is so broad in not-for-profits. And what inspires you most about working for not-for-profits as your main clients?
Barb: I absolutely adore the work that they do. And I typically work with clients who are visionaries, maybe have a new CEO or maybe go through a rapid growth stage. And they have really established who they are, what they're really good at. And then they have ambitious growth plans, which grants and tenders are part of that plan. But what I really love about what I do is the people who are so amazing at their service delivery or their outcomes. And yet typically when they work in this sector, they're so humble. I get to help them celebrate what they do on paper and then to see their sense of pride in that and then to see them win the funding is even the best part.
Alyssa: That's so nice, isn't it? Especially when you've been privy to the back end of that process and you know how difficult and how much time, not only for yourself, but the organizations as well.
Barb: Yeah. I think it's totally underestimated. We were talking earlier, we're getting some home improvements done recently and we got a quote for someone to come in and put a deck in. And then I was like, my God, that's a colossal quote. Like it's just a deck, right? And then my husband was like, people probably think the same when you quote them for a grant. It's just a grant. And I'm like, well, yeah, but it's not. So it was a bit of an eye opener.
Alyssa: That's a good comparison actually. The funding potential is always there. Could be several million dollars as well.
Barb: Yeah, there can be zeros. One part that I don't do in the grants are the budgets. Because sometimes there's too many zeros. I'm like, I'll do your words. We'll make sure that the budget, all the numbers balance, but please do not have me responsible for calculating your budget.
Alyssa: I mean, it's very good to know where your strengths lie. And to be fair, organizations are often super well placed to do that in that they have the salary figures, they might've done something similar before. So do the orgs themselves do the budgets typically?
Barb: Yes, so I would guide them on what can be included or not included or help translate the guidelines. But they will do the actual calculations. But what I do make sure is that there isn't any budget shock, right? So we can talk about what we're going to do in the narrative. And then they come to the budget and there's this whole line item for people that were just never mentioned. And I'm like, no, no, no, let's ensure there's no surprises and consistency.
Alyssa: That's a really good point. I often find when I'm working across both, I'll do the text and then the budget. And then similarly you realize there's something you haven't mentioned at all. It's so frustrating. You have to redo everything. So yeah, having worked across so many different clients and areas, what's one cool outcome that you've achieved, like a grant you've won that you're really proud of, or a cool program that you worked with a client on?
Barb: I was thinking about this. I'm lucky and this is probably with the spin on the word grateful. I do sit back and consider how lucky I am or how proud I am to be in the world of people doing great work. But I remember a moment. A client I've worked with for a few years and we've done social prescribing program, mental health program, aged care, homeless prevention. They are exceptional at what they do, put everything in it, top of their game. But we were applying a few years ago for an aged care program called Care Finders in Australia. It supports and connects vulnerable older people who are quite often living alone with services that can help them. And we had applied for a couple of tenders and we were really lucky. We won seven out of nine, which we were really happy with.
Alyssa: Yeah, that's amazing.
Barb: And then it was like a year and a half later, we were answering a different question for a new tender. And it was saying, can you demonstrate where you've done similar type of work and show us the outcomes that you've achieved? And I was like, we can talk about the Care Finders and the growth of that program. And then my client was like, yeah, we've got 74 people in that team now. And I was like, sorry, hold up a second. You've got 74 people. But you remember we were talking about this as an idea and we were just trying to shape the program. And those 74 people are, and compassion is really a big value of theirs, I just knew that all those people were out having compassionate conversations every day with vulnerable older people. I think it was a real moment. It was like, wow.
Alyssa: That's massive. The power of what a successful grant can achieve for an organization. And then the outcomes that that would achieve for the people in that program.
Barb: Yeah, it was really nice. Sometimes you have to pause and go behind those statistics. We see the outcomes occur, real human beings, both doing the work and benefiting from the service.
Alyssa: That's it. I wrote a grant once where it was for an org to create a business case for a women's ranger program. And it was really cool then working with that staff member on the bigger project. It's really nice to see like, I wrote a grant that paid for this person's wage and they're an awesome human and they get to do this cool stuff.
Barb: Yeah, it's so cool. And then even just this afternoon, I'm going into the city and most of my work is done remotely. But we're going in because my client is a recipient of significant funding which is going to be announced. There were 122 applications and 10 organizations were picked. So I'll just be sitting there just so proud of them and the whole thing.
Alyssa: Wow. That's a nice demonstration of your skills in action to be picked for something like that.
Barb: It's nice. But then I also kind of go, people do, and you probably find this too when you win, they think it's us. And it is us and we are part of that process. But what we do really well is make them the hero. They're like, oh, thank you so much. And I'm like, absolutely, you're welcome. I'm delighted. But actually the reason you won is because you do great work or you've got a great vision or you've got a great idea.
Alyssa: That's exactly it. At the end of the day, you're clever with words, but you're also not making up what the organization has done. They have achieved those things. So I guess we've talked about some of the challenges. Is there a story that best encapsulates your impact?
Barb: I think I need to update my socials, but I did a tally recently of how much funding that we've supported. I say we, because it's myself and there's a couple of amazing freelance grant writers that help and they're very much part of the team. But I think our latest numbers are over 55 million, which is pretty cool. But I also celebrate, I had an amazing client who's a brand new registered charity, but they had done other work in services, not as a charity before. And they just messaged last week to say they won their first 20K grant. And that's actually, sometimes I don't think the big hero numbers are everything. Yes, one client can be applying for a three year contract that's going to be 2 million a year. That can be part of it. But that 20K, that first win, it's cool.
Alyssa: 100%. And it will then help that organization to demonstrate they can administer a grant, they can acquit it. And that's their pathway to more funding. Also, it's so interesting because some orgs are able to achieve really exciting things with 10 or 20K that you wouldn't have thought of. It's often the small ones doing really cool, tangible on-the-ground things.
Barb: Totally. And then I've got other clients where we were talking about the Perpetual grant and that's up to 120K. And that's a lot of money for a lot of organizations. And then I have other clients who wouldn't even consider it because it doesn't even touch the edges. But everybody was somewhere at some point. Everybody was small at some point and then some people grow large and it's part of their journey.
Alyssa: It's a good reminder. Some of those bigger orgs may only need one or two of those million dollar grants and they're not going for the smaller ones. But for the others, the smaller grants are the lifeblood of the organization.
Barb: 100%. And I'm a big fan of getting funding as much as possible for what's in your P&L. Like what do you actually spend money on? What do you need funding for? Because sadly there's an abundance of grants for new, innovative, brand new things. That's great, but that's actually not going to pay what you need in your budget. So I think if we can get 75% of the budget to cover commitments we've already made, great.
Alyssa: Yeah, excellent point. There's that temptation sometimes to craft something to fit the grant rather than just doing something you actually want or are best placed to do.
Barb: Well, I just had a conversation with a client this week. I've taken over because they had an in-house grant writer and I've seen their content. They were an amazing grant writer, but what I've learned in the process is that they actually didn't get approval for some of the grants and the funding that they won. And now the organization, it's kind of like 50% we know what they do and 50% we'll do it for this cohort of people or in this region. And it's a lot of work. They're a smaller charity of just sub one million and their board are like, well, how come you haven't got more grants in the pipeline? And I was like, no, we're taking a different strategy. Because the operations people are just frustrated about grants now. They have a bad taste in their mouth about grants and the acquittals because it's hard work. Whereas I think what I look for is that there's as little friction or no friction from what we write about and then when you hear that you've won the money, you know what you can deliver and you can do a great job.
Alyssa: Yes. It's not just about winning, is it?
Barb: No, and it's not about volume of applications unless it's great applications.
Alyssa: You're absolutely right. And I think it is that key advice that organizations need and are looking for when they seek you out. So through your years working in the grant space, are there any turning points you found in your work or major challenges that you've had to overcome, either within your business or within changes in the grant space for your clients?
Barb: There's probably a couple. It was realizing that I am not your budget person. That was a hard lesson learned. It was a last minute rush to populate a grant in a portal. And the client was late giving me figures, even though I'd been chasing them for a while. And then we were submitting literally in the last hour and I don't like doing that anymore. Now I've got a harder deadline process. And in that process, I think instead of putting in 4 million, I put 40, right? And there were no checks because there was no time. And I was like, okay, this process is not working. So now I've got a much better process around that. So that was a tough one.
Barb: And also where possible, I don't actually do the submission or the upload into the portal because I think some engagement in the process for the organization to go, this is ours, right? We actually get to submit that and enjoy that moment of submit. I think it's important engagement. But another pivotal moment from a business context was moving from pure philanthropy fundraising grants into the tenders space. Into tendering in the community health sector. And originally I had what we would refer to as imposter syndrome. I'm like, I've never done one of these before. And what are they asking? I actually found them simpler, even though they were asking for millions of dollars of funding. They often only had three or four questions instead of so many more. But every word was intentional and on purpose. And that was actually that original Care Finders one that I mentioned that we ended up winning seven out of nine. They were the first tenders that I did. And so now I think my business is probably about 50-50 of tenders and community health and then philanthropy and traditional fundraising.
Alyssa: That's really cool. It's actually quite inspiring to hear, being able to make those calls and being confident about where your strengths are. I'm quite similar to you, I really don't like working down to the wire. I'm very organized precisely to avoid that.
Barb: Yes, I think there's a rare unicorn moment where it has to happen, but most of the time I'm like, no. I think actually it was another grant writer who said to me that an agency they worked with, they just don't handle the grant within 48 hours of the deadline. I was like, wow, is that even a possibility?
Alyssa: I like that. I also really appreciate your point around getting organizations to hit submit because it's something I've gone back and forth on in my own business. That is a policy that I have as well. The orgs have to hit submit because I think it also, if people are, I want to make sure that they are reading what I'm writing because they know their services best.
Barb: Yeah, I think it's a mixture. I've got some clients and they're like, you can do it, right? And you can hit submit. And that is a nice trust-based relationship, which is awesome. But I remember when I started working with some of the bigger organizations, they were like, okay, let's have the draft ready by minus work-in day five, and then we'll give it to the CEO or to the director to review. And I was like, oh, this is interesting having this structure. But then one of my clients, when their CEO was commenting on some of her drafts, had some good observations because they're subject matter experts. So I was like, of course I wouldn't have known that about alcohol or other drugs or homelessness because it's not my domain. But then we worked it through with her. And it was kind of a bit of an inner joke. I was like, yep, I've sent it off to CEO to review. There's no comments. I was like, there's no comments! That's so cool.
Alyssa: Amazing. That's such an important check and balance. And I also like your point around the ownership aspect. At the end of the day, you don't want a situation where the funding comes in and everyone's turning to you going, okay, what do we do?
Barb: I know, what do we say we were going to do? And I have to say, I do enjoy that part of what we do. There's only very few organizations that I do acquittals or reports for. So normally when you've won the funding, I'm like, brilliant, awesome, bye. Until the next one. But at the same time, because I find that it's cyclical, I've got clients and we have great success and therefore they don't actually need me anymore. And I'm like, I'm actually doing myself out of work here. And then they naturally come back kind of six months later. The implementation plans that we've written as part of our submission, that's their hard work for them to do. And I just get to walk away.
Alyssa: Yes, you're kind of writing it thinking, this is a big piece of work.
Barb: It's a big one. Last year in the aged care space was hot because of the productivity commission investigations. Aged care had a significant change in the assessment process. And we did a tender and we nicknamed it the PhD. It was so, so long. And we won it, which was just sweet. But just painful, and they had to then go and implement all of those things.
Alyssa: The PhDs! I'm going to use that. And the proofreading on something like that would be enormous.
Barb: Oh, it's just massive. I'm actually really lucky. One of the contract grant writers that I have, she actually used to be a patent lawyer. Score, right? Because sometimes I find towards the end, I'm like, oh, I've moved on, we've shaped it and written it. But one of the other things I think being a grant writer has really helped me to do is not take things personally anymore. That's one of the things I tell clients. We'll write what we're interpreting you're saying into words. But if you don't feel comfortable or we haven't said it the right way, just tell us. We're very open to feedback.
Alyssa: That's definitely a good way to work. Because at the end of the day, everyone's got their own preferences for how they sell themselves or their organizational voice. So we've talked about some of the challenges in grant writing. Would you say there's any one specific thing you'd single out as the hardest part about grant writing today? Any changes you've seen or general aspects of the job?
Barb: I've really noticed, and this will probably lead to our shared passion with AI, I've definitely noticed in the last 18 months or so applications are so much more competitive. The volume of applications has gone up. If we look at typically corporate philanthropy, they would generally have open calls for application and they may have picked a theme area like youth or homelessness or domestic family violence. So the volume of applications has really gone up. So everybody has to improve from where they were. People who were doing not so good average applications are now getting considered. But I also think we need to write for that modern world. I can tell when something's been written from the first attempt at ChatGPT. I'm sure you can too. And so if I can see that, imagine what the funder can see if they're getting 50, 100 or more applications. So we need to adapt to how the world is. And I think that's one of the lucky things that I've always been able to do. It was to write so people can understand what they're reading. They can get it. Whereas if we look back at years gone by, you almost had to confuse someone to demonstrate your intelligence. And we just don't have that capacity. We're very intelligent, but we just don't have the time now.
Alyssa: That's very true. Do you find, particularly with the strict formats, word limits and stuff, I often read something and think, this is a very stripped back version of what I'd actually like to write. But often those are the more successful applications when you're very clear about your program.
Barb: Yeah, it can be harder. I remember writing one tender for the exact same program in a different region. One of them wanted it within a thousand words and they wanted a lot within a thousand words. And another gave you 20,000 characters, which is like 10 times the amount of words. But it was actually better to write it to the thousand words. It demanded a definite different caliber of response. But I think also there are some grants, particularly in the corporate philanthropy space that are, you know, my nan would say mutton dressed as lamb. They say it is corporate philanthropy, but they're actually looking to showcase. They're not actually interested in funding. They've already got a marketing and media messaging that they want to fit in.
Alyssa: It's so true. I've seen things like Qantas grants or Canon Oceania grants. It's very clear they want to pick the hot topic and it's very hard to stand out in that crowd. I've done some of those for a rare diseases organization and I got feedback from one of them and it was sort of, no one knows what this disease is. And it's like, well, that's why we're doing these grants.
Barb: That's because it's rare! I think it's hard. Some of those grants, they're looking very much for staff wellbeing or staff engagement. And this just happens to be one of the processes. So they're looking for charities that they can send staff out to do volunteering. But if you're working with victims of domestic family violence or young children, that's not appropriate. So the actual social impact, are you funding the social impact? Or if you do want volunteering, put it right up front and center, only apply if you can do this. And that's okay because it's their money. They get to choose how they get to spend it. But I think there can be some resentment because the same grants often show up year on year. Often it's the same people sitting in the seats on the funders side. And a lot of funders say that they still get applications outside of the categories or the domain. And I'm like, why, why, why spend that time when you have no hope of winning? Put it into a conversation with someone who loves your mission or your cause.
Alyssa: That's very true. I've definitely worked on some where we've sort of gone, you're probably on the fence. You do technically fit the criteria, but it's very borderline. And so we still apply and then it's so tough. What kind of advice do you give to orgs in those instances?
Barb: If you're on the fence, I would probably suggest, and this is harder because in years gone by it was definitely easier to reach out to the funder. Maybe go, look, we think we're on the fence. This is what we do. A very short sharp email. I often draft a lot of those and it will come from the CEO or somebody else. Like the ghost writer that doesn't exist. But let's say you weren't able to have that contact with someone, I would only suggest to still give it a shot if you have that content or the tool so that it literally just took you less than 45 minutes to do it. Otherwise, I'm like, move on. Because I think there's a reason that grant writers can talk about their high win rate. And a big part of the high win rate is not applying for grants that you don't have a chance of winning.
Alyssa: That's very true as a grant writer, brings your stats way down. But I do really like that advice. If you can do it quickly, you've got nothing to lose. Otherwise, yeah.
Barb: I think the other thing to consider is the tenure of people on the funder side. Because there's often a turnover from the fundraising and partnerships team, but they have known your organization. They probably received applications from your organization from two other people in the last five years. So the submission you put in is your brand. It is the quality of the application, the quality of the phone call. That person has been the same person more often than not. And yet you're new, and sadly a lot of people don't have the history of what's been applied for, or the relationship management, or they have the tools and they haven't been populated.
Alyssa: That's very true. It's not just hitting submit often, it's the relationship management that often gets missed. Do you have any examples of a really creative funding success where you had to pitch on behalf of a client in a way that was a bit left field?
Barb: Maybe if I give you one example. One of my clients was applying for a tender to deliver services for social prescribing. And I had never heard of social prescribing before. It's a really cool initiative. Basically what social prescribing is, it's for people who experience loneliness and social separation and how that is now known to impact our mental and physical health. So the social prescribing programs are identifying people at high risk of social isolation and connecting them to services and then helping them to attend first appointments or to get help and to increase their circle of trust. That social participation has ripple effects to our social, emotional, mental, and physical health.
Barb: So I was like, this is cool. I haven't done this before. I don't really know anything. And so in the briefing call, we had the original conversation, the guidelines, what the idea was. And then they had mentioned that social prescribing had been born from a concept in the UK from the National Health Service. So after the call, as part of my scoping, I went and read up more. And I found some amazing content and programs running in the UK. But what I also found was this impact study of many social prescribing programs that said there are five features of a really strong social prescribing program. And my client had given me three of those five. On the next call, I was like, actually, I've done this research, there are these five elements. And they were like, yeah, we do those other two, we do all five. And I'm like, what? They just sometimes don't know how great they are. And so by me going, well, that's actually really important. If we can say that here's five elements, they make a great program as proven by this study, this is what we have.
Barb: And I think part of why they don't brag is the humbleness. Sometimes when you're an external person, you can facilitate them to celebrate themselves a bit more than sometimes an internal person.
Alyssa: 100%, I can really relate to that. I've had several where you're talking to someone from the org and they just rattle off all this amazing stuff just in a by-the-by conversation and you go, this is fantastic. Please tell me more. I think when people are working with an external grant writer, often they maybe don't know what exactly to give you. Especially if you're a fast learner, they think, well, you know our history. But there's a lot I don't know. And the more you give, the stronger the application will be.
Barb: Yes. And I find sometimes it's even just going through the questions word by word. I remember we noticed with this client where we were applying for multiple regions and a new tender came out for housing and homelessness services. One of the questions was about working with local stakeholders. But it had like, demonstrate how you have a deep understanding. I was like, demonstrate, that's a very important word. And then deep understanding, they're not looking for just light touch. I said, this caliber of grant questions is quite different for this primary health network. It reminds me of the neighbouring one where I was saying about the thousand words and the 20,000 characters. And they were like, well, funny you should say that because the head of procurement has actually moved from there to here. And I was like, well I can see their impact. I can see the thought process. Every word matters.
Alyssa: Yeah, absolutely. The phrasing of the question can really change everything. Even just one word like deep, you kind of think, I can't just Google something and pull out the first sentence I find.
Barb: But then you've got other ones. I've got one literally reviewing now. We're at the very start of the six-week window, although they've given us eight weeks which is great because of the Christmas break. But they want your firstborn child for a thousand words. They want everything. Governance, staff bios, stakeholder relationships. I'm like, seriously, how are we going to make that fit?
Alyssa: How is this even possible?
Barb: It always gets done though. I always want to say it always gets done and we're always happy when it gets submitted. We just work through it. Another strategy that I've found quite good to help clients is to work in a sprint process. We start as early as possible in terms of ideating the program or who the local stakeholders would be in that region. And we don't even start writing until probably two weeks or more after that, because I find that the client needs that nudge to go, yeah, we worked with the Smith family. We worked with that local school. Let's have a conversation with them. And then start that process. So it's that ideating and shaping and does that fit the guidelines? Can we include it? Can we not?
Alyssa: Do you find it hard sometimes, the temptation to start writing, but then you also know when you don't have all the information?
Barb: Yeah, I think sometimes as a grant writer, you're part detective. You're asking all those probing questions, coming in and going, tell me more, tell me more. And then we consume a lot of written documents. We've read many an annual report and many an impact study. And then I find you're a bit of a magpie and you come back and show the beautiful things and go, am I on track? Is this the right direction? And then they go, yes, it is. No, not that. And then what often happens is they go, actually, you reminded me of this example that we could include or this approach or this document that we have. So we do shorter meetings almost every week, depending on the size of the submission. And then really it's kind of in the last three weeks where the writing gets done. Hopefully not in the last week, but hey, it always happens. I still submit grants last minute sometimes. I think everybody does.
Alyssa: 100%. Sometimes that's just how long it takes, and sometimes you don't get given much lead time either.
Barb: Yes. The one that I'm going into today that had the 122 applications, that was for an employment program supporting vulnerable women. It was quite niche. And I think there was an element of social enterprise. My client has both. And they only opened that application window for three weeks.
Alyssa: Wow, that's very short.
Barb: Super short. Thankfully, they did an EOI process to filter out, which I'm a big fan of. If more funders could do that, I think it would be great.
Alyssa: Then you know you're in for a better chance. I am very keen to get your take on AI. What role do you see technology or AI playing in the future of your work? Do you use AI? Are you finding it helpful?
Barb: I'm a huge fan of it when it's used right. I suppose if I look at our sector, particularly for not-for-profits, they're very resource strained. So from that context, if it's a tool that can increase capacity and improve the quality of work, I'm all down for it. But I think it works best as a collaborative approach. Somebody said to me recently, it's like your AI colleague. And knowing how to make sure yours doesn't look like you've just used the generic version of ChatGPT and it's spat out a generic answer. I find it's like building that program, using different subject matter expertise for impact work, for local relationships, for getting statistics. But you have to fact check them. It totally hallucinates. But I'm definitely a fan of it.
Barb: One time, the client who won their first 20K grant, I was helping mentor her how to build her content library using ChatGPT. We were spending some time together and I gave her some concepts and templates. I said, when they ask you to describe your organization or tell us about your program, this is what they're looking for. And when she came back to me with the first template of who they are as an organization, I was like, I could actually take out your name. They're a micro, just starting out grassroots charity. I said, I could take out your name and put in the Smith family. You've got no heart and soul in who you are. And they are in such a niche area of helping people with complex needs. I said, and you have lived experience. You just haven't got your heart and soul. So she went back, redrafted and I literally had goosebumps when I got what she wrote. I was like, oh, you've got it. So she's just so keen and eager to use AI and she should. And then obviously she absolutely loved GrantDrafter too. So it's just like, where has this been?
Alyssa: I appreciate that. It's definitely an ethos we have working with GrantDrafter. At the end of the day, at this stage, it is a draft. It's a time saving tool, it gets you part of the way. And I find it much easier to start from a point of looking at text on the page than a blank space.
Barb: Yes. But also so often you go, I remember I answered that question in another application. Where is it? Where can I find it?
Alyssa: That's it. Being able to search that content. You don't have to go back through files. But I'm glad you say that about smaller organizations because a lot of them don't have a dedicated grant writer and they don't have the time. But certainly your work with people on those content libraries and having really strong foundational content is so important.
Barb: And I think then, it's a tool. I've seen clients use AI, different generic forms of AI, but they're using it to regurgitate average content that hasn't been winning them applications. I'm like, okay, if we can actually just polish that, refresh that, imagine then if you can get a tool that when you see a grant, you can go, I've got the content. Here's those questions. Can you draft it for me? For less than 15 minutes. And from there then you can go, that actually looks good or that needs to be improved. I just think giving the gift of time and also giving the gift of hope. Because someone that can be from a place of confidence and go, that's a good submission, I could submit that. Particularly if they're in a smaller charity where they're also doing program delivery, other fundraising, everything else.
Alyssa: Yes. I wonder if funders themselves are aware of this. I think it can be quite easy to create a grant template for people to fill out, but are funders thinking about the small guy who has no time? Although I have seen some video applications. How do you feel about that?
Barb: Interesting. When I started working with my first Aboriginal controlled organization about 14 months ago, New South Wales government were contracting for services and they had the option for video responses from ACCHOs. And we used it to our advantage because my clients know their mob and their people so well and they're so passionate as advocates. So we picked that question about why you and why you're so well connected. But we also wrote out the response almost in bullet form. Because sometimes when they think they're going to answer a verbal question, they can go off on tangents. I was like, no, answer these questions first. I do like the video essence of it, but it depends. There was a capacity building grant where they ask a lot of questions and they ask for a one-minute video. And I'm like, you could have asked for the one-minute video from the organizations that you shortlist. Because the one-minute video can terrify people. So it's picking the right people to do the right parts.
Alyssa: Very true. Some people can speak so eloquently off the cuff and others, myself included, video would terrify me and I would need my dot points.
Barb: That's it. It's working to your strengths.
Alyssa: Are there any other practical lessons or time-saving hacks for other grant writers that might be listening?
Barb: Something I'm still not very good at is tracking my time. So my advice is to others, please do that. But for other grant writers, I think it would be to appreciate the value that we bring to organizations. That fact finding, helping people shine, and understanding that sometimes you might be doing it for a 10 or 50K grant, but that 10 or 50K grant is very valuable to that organization. And it gives them content they can use on their next application. I think a lot of grant writers have to start out charging hourly or kind of working your way through that process. Sometimes it's based on the value of the application. Knowing the value of what you bring is important because when the organization wins, it means so much. You're not going to win them all, but it's knowing that part. The other one is what I personally choose: I don't take commission based on the win. It just doesn't sit comfortably with me in the sector that we work in. In a lot of other countries, it's not well regarded. But I would have potential clients go, could you do this and we'll give you a chip of the money. I go, no, not your person.
Alyssa: I completely agree, I'm the same. I decided that early. A lot of them can't take it out of the grant unless you hide it in the budget in a secretive way.
Alyssa: You're so right. It's so hard sometimes to value grant writing services. Especially for people who are starting out, but so important to value it highly because if you do win, you are potentially winning significant amounts for the organization and that time is valuable. So I have just a quick rapid fire, three questions to close us out. Can you give me one word to describe fundraising or grant writing?
Alyssa: I like that. Nice. What's the most underrated skill in not-for-profit work?
Alyssa: Very true. For the next grant. That's a great point. And do you have a not-for-profit hero? Someone who you look up to in the space? Could be an organization or an individual.
Alyssa: I love that actually. I recently discovered him as well and his stuff is great. He's got some really tangible things you can do to improve. It's quite inspiring. Well, thank you so much for your time, Barb. It's been awesome.
Alyssa: The podcast is powered by GrantDrafter, helping organizations to draft their next grant in five minutes or less. For those listening, we hope you're feeling inspired to get out there and maximise your impact. And if you haven't already, check out GrantDrafter at grantdrafter.com.